Episode Transcript
WEBVTT
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All right, we're live once again
in the global podcast studios here in Atlanta,
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Georgia. Rich Casanova here alongside Dwayne
Hart, the man of the hour
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once again. Uh, if you
haven't heard the name, I don't know
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where you've been, especially, especially
if you're in the cybersecurity space are interested
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in pursuing a career. I have
questions or concerns. Uh. It's definitely
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a hot topic across Um, you
know, the water cooler conversation, that
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kind of thing. Right. So, this is the new era of what's
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happening in technology, and that is
cybersecurity. This man wrote the book on
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it. Uh, he has a
podcast about the subject matter and right now
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he's here on the show. So, uh so, Mr Hart. So
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let's start off with today's topic,
which is about basically cybersecurity in the transportation
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industry. Right. UH, for
the most part we're gonna be talking about
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the personal individual, because these are, you know, most people listen to
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the audience. A time permitting.
Yeah, time permitting. We we may
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get into UH QUESTIONS REGARDING UH fleet
transportation and government vehicles, but let's talk.
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Let's lead with what's the definition?
How would you just saw define this
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area of cybersecurity and transportation. Okay, Rick Rich, I'M gonna break everybody
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in on something that's very simple year. Right, let's just look at cybersecurity
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in itself and look at the use
of cybersecurity. Right, so looking at
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the core elements of cybersecurity and saying, okay, we need to find ways
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to protect information data and make sure
we keep hackers away. Okay, let's
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take that and take it across the
road, no pun intended, right in
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the parking lot, whi these cars
apart. All right, the same concept
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survives and it's there, but it's
automobiles now. So so, when I
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think automobiles, I'm thinking about some
of these same core technologies, but they're
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in automobile because a lot of technologies
are reused. When you think about,
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uh, a navigation system in a
car, if you think about a remote
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controlled advice that you have, because
you have a lot of remote control advices
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that you leave at the house as
well too, if you go and Um,
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think about a lot of these cars
have a mini computer, right,
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and so take that concept and apply
to a regular computer. Yeah, so
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it's not that foreign. The widgets
that are in our laptop, at our
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phones, they're just installing it now
in, uh, a bigger object that
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has four wheels on it, right, and you know, here is the
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risk factor in this. You're driving
your vehicle, right, and all of
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a sudden your vehicle starts to take
you somewhere that you did not plan to
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go, okay, and so you
end up at the police station, right,
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okay. So best case scenario,
right. So. So now that
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is the risk factor. But also
taken, taken, and looking at the
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fact that that if someone was to
infiltrate the system of a car and they
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put rensomwhere in there and you can't
use your car and they say, Hey,
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you gotta give me five thousand dollars, you know, before you can
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turn your car back on, it's
kind of like getting booted right in the
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parking lot. This is the new
this is the digital version of getting booted.
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You know what, now that you
bring that up, I'm going to
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throw something out there, especially about
the future. Right. Imagine if someone
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did not pay that parking tickets,
right, okay, okay, imagine if
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that was a way to control that
car, way you could not drive your
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car. Okay, and that could
be a feature in your car where the
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Police Department could shut down your vehicle, right and right are. So imagine
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that this, because I don't know
if there's features out there, but I'm
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gonna bring it up. Imagine if
a car was stolen, right, and
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imagine if, for some reason,
Um, you know, the system could
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find your car and to Navage,
navigate your car to the police station and
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it goes and locked the doors.
It is those criminals nightmare. Well,
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some of that's already in place.
Right, maybe that's the exact description,
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but but I know they have,
like in your last a matter of fact,
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you just finished a live stream episode
talking about digital parenting and about kids
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and technology and parents oversight of that. Right. So I know in fact
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there is devices that uh parents in
this case, could install in vehicles that
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doesn't allow the vehicle to go beyond
a certain mile, mile per hour,
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right, for safety reasons. So
if that's digitally connected to your car,
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that's not such a foreign concept that, um, but then it gets into
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you know, who's in control here
whatever. But which leads into another topic
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we're gonna talk about is uh insurance
and risk management. So the insurance companies,
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you'd probably get a discount or credit
for your insurance policy. If you
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have this installed on your vehicle and
back to like if it's stolen, it
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could be tracked. Right. Uh. What's what's the device? You put
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your button, then they can,
Um, uh, they connect you with
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a with a voice person to talk
to the you're talking about and Croll your
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in in car control APP are.
There's like a safety device that, like
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on some of the videos, you
push a button on star, on star,
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right, and if you connected on
star, which is a digital version
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of what we're talking about, they
can say where your car is at and
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if it's stolen, they can track
their car, right, and so they
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could maybe not drive it to the
police station. They can certainly start to
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slow down the function of it.
And so it comes to complete stop.
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And now there's a GPS trackers,
so they can locate your vehicle. But,
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um, but this kind of PIGGY
BA into insurance and risk management.
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So where do you think the insurance
companies are at on this topic? Well,
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you know, like any type of
technology, I don't think they have
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grassed on it yet because, you
know, it has to happen versts.
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That has to be a dire diat
need. You know, that's just like
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critical infrastructure and all the utility plans. You know, they only became Um
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a sovereige cuty issue when the attacks
start to occur. Right, okay,
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you know, prior, prior to
then, you know that wasn't a large
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discussion. Now now, if you
think about cars, all right, you
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know it hasn't been a large or
very large discussion. It hasn't been any
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type of a large reporting on it. But Trust me, once you see
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this reporting start to happen, that's
when insurance companies are gonna have to come
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up with certain policies because maybe you
can get your insurance um reduce with certain
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safety features. Okay. And secondly, two is maybe the insurance companies,
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you know now is working with the
police departments and if you unpaid your insurance,
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then you know the car is going
to see it in your yard.
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Right. Well, that begs the
next question in terms of leadership. WHO's
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taken, who's going to be a
more proactive lead on this? Right because,
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like in another episode podcast, you
talked about Um a topic where,
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you know, uh, not just
a hacker's hat, but where people need
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to kind of like be more proactive
about it. But in terms of is
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this lie more in the private or
the public sector right in terms of responsibility
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and leadership? Is it a Um? You know, does it behoove the
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industry to be more proactive about it? I mean kind of like actually,
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in a recent episode you talked about
the workforce being remote. Right, that
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was that was kind of forced upon
us. You know, there is no
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contingency plans to implement that on a
on a global scale until we had a
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worldwide issue, right, and so
unfortunately the government and the public sector may
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be waiting for that dire situation just
described. You know, when I look
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at the issue, it is all
hands responsibility, because if the issue became
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something where where, where it was
separated, you know, between saying that
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it's the public and or the private
sector role, that's when sobersecurity start to
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fail. In my book I talked
about responsible actions and ownership. Somebody has
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to take ownership, okay, and
somebody has to lead, so they're gonna
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win. But now, since it
has not became a really scrown topic,
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I know that the government is taking
a lead on this and try to come
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up with standards that she needs to
be in place, which is good.
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And likewise, since since we're having
this discussion. People that are listening to
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this podcast may not have ever heard
of this topic before. Never have thought
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of it before. All right,
but hopefully there is a collaboration between the
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public and the private sector and also
to the automobile industries. Absolutely. Um.
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So I get another comment question coming
up, but beforehand. So,
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if you're listening to this podcast,
rich casting over here in the Lanta ctity
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alongside Dwayne Hart, uh, and
speaking of his book he just mentioned.
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Uh. So go to just dwayne
heart dot com and you can see everything
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about the podcast, about his live
stream, about his Um and his obviously
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his book. Right. So again, just everything you can find social media,
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all that good stuff. Just DWAYNE
HEART DOT COM. So my question,
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Um, our comment is about you
know, we were talking about these
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dire straits. But the good news
is, in a recent article we just
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pulled up today, the good news
is, uh, one of the questions
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how many hacks have happened to date? The good news is no one,
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you know, can give an exact
number here. Right, but the but
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there's only been really a handful of
real world hacks, such as the jeep
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wranglers in two thousand and sixteen that's
been identified to date, because a lot
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of people kind of have this fear, you know factor involved of like,
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Oh, I don't want cybersecurity in
my car, it's gonna Crash, for
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people are gonna take it over right, other kind of thing. But it's
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kind of like the autonomous vehicle.
When that first rolled out, people were,
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you know, kind of in panic
mode. But the reality is some
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of these vehicles have gone over like
a million miles only had one incident,
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whereas the people driving cars have incidents
every ten seconds. Right. So cybersecurity
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in the vehicle is a concern,
but I don't think it's something that you
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have to like, Um, be
overly anxious about. Right. Well,
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well, well, see, what
we have to look at is the current
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state of the technology's dead it venues
in these vehicles. All right, if
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we think about fifty years ago,
everyone was writing information down on the sheet
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of paper and put it in the
shoe box and throw it in the closet,
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right, but today information is all
across smartphones, tablets, emails and
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everywhere. How much technology do we
even have in these vehicles now? Okay,
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it's you know, it's probably not
to a point where it has raised
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the alarm, but that needs to
be a scrow discussion because we look at
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cars now, I think the on
star systems, it's one having a remote
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control is too because in those remote
controls you can start your car fifteen minutes
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prior to you enter the car.
All right, and it's all the features
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that you have now. Those are
minimum type of controls that you have.
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Well, you know, minimum type
of technology that you have. But just
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imagine as technology start to add on
to these vehicles, because now what if
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you want to have a robotic vehicle? Now that's when a lot of cybersecurity
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has come in place, because it's
not humans that are driving vehicles now.
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So so my point is that that, yes, the industry should should be
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concerned and the industry should start to
at least accelerate a large discussion about automobiles
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and also to try to investigate ways
to put some controls in place, because
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we know that technology grows, just
like a regular cell phone. About twenty
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years ago, you know, we
were doing basic things with it, but
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now look at the cell phones.
Imagine all the technologies that are gonna be
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included in these vehicles. All right. So so it needs to have a
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discussion. All right, now should
now. Should people be alarmed? Okay,
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yeah, yeah, you should be
alarmed. All right, you should
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be cognizant of it. Like right, just like that, hackers had reference.
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We talked about but it's interesting.
You mentioned about, uh, the
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concerns, but the part of the
reality is, thinking about aviation is still,
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to this day, one of the
safest ways to travel. And the
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reality is talking about technology, is
that, UM, most of your entire
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flight time is a pilot, not
steering coats, steering the plane. Right,
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it's really just on takeoff and landing. After that it's on, you
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know, not just autopilot, but
but all the devices are running that and
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it's extremely safe. Right. So
it comes down to risk versus reward.
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Right, what do we what's our
trade off? Well, what you know?
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You know, it all depends on
the growth of technology, all right,
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and I'm just gonna keep pushing there, because the more technology that you
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add into the vehicles, the more
you're gonna have a need for cybersecurity.
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Okay, cybersecurity is needed, but
the more need for cybersecurity will grow as
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you add more technology. Okay,
Um, and you know, the only
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way to work ahead of the automobile
industry and I keep repeating this, is
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to have discussion and to engage.
Now, if we look at certain concepts
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outside of the responsible of the responsible
actions and ownership and focus towards the hackers
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mentality, and also, too,
about digital modernization, because digital modnization means
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that we need to improve the way
we do business right and our situation awareness
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have to be there as well too, because our situation awareness is telling us
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that this is becoming an issue.
So so, when you think about the
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cybersecurity mindset, those are some of
the interfaces Um that I see. That
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falls into automobile cybersecurity safety. But
likewise, as technology grows, we're going
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to have more issues and hopefully,
and hopefully, you know, the government
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is taking a scroll very strong stand
on this now, because you don't want
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to wait until things start to be
drastic in Dannie steppion and said, well,
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we need to come up with plans, policies and regulations. You know,
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it starts with the design of the
vehicles. Yeah, and we were
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talking about before we went on the
air about design Um, this balance of
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you know, what it's sold at
the dealership. We mentioned kind of the
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on star. That's not really the
your Automo, you know, GM or
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four doesn't Um build on star.
That's a third party. We talked about
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the before, like the third party
integration or these vendors, that these suppliers,
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right, and their security protocol.
So in this case, in terms
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of cybersecurity and vehicle, the dealership, it may be a benefit which becomes
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a selling point. Right. You
think about back in the day power windows
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was was the selling point in power
steering, right. But Um, and
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so same thing with now installing security
in your equal or all of these APPs
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and widgets. But you talked about
technology as well. Um, at what
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point, you know it's gonna become
outdated, just like they talked about the
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iphone four no longer gets updates.
So at some point that your vehicle is
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going to be maintained by a third
party, that O e. m right,
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as opposed to taking it back to
the dealership. So you know who
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who's uh, you know, kind
of you know, a bit of a
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blurred lines. Right, of as
a consumer, where does the responsibility lie?
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Well, what a responsibility. It's
going to rely in the planning process.
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Okay, I'm you know, I've
always been a component to say that
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when it comes to the responsibility is
to look at everybody that touches sobersecuity.
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Okay. Now, with that said, you know that has to be a
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planning process in place, because as
of now, you and I having a
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discussion about this. So the second
question goes, is it somebody in Congress
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or the Senate or somewhere else in
the government and also, Um, you
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know, the car manufacturers and also
uh, national traffic and safety, Um,
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elements of the government is having a
discussion as well too, because those
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discussions leads leads into planning, right. Um. You know, one of
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the other facts that too is that
that I speak about the design factor,
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because that's the core to resolve these
cybecurity issues here. You know, it
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needs to be a standard and catch
it on the front end. So you
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know when you have a standard in
place that will force some of the automakers
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to design these cars, you know, with a government type of UH standard
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in place, you know, maybe
the nist Um, looking at some of
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the I s oh standards out in
place. Um, looking at some of
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the other type of technology and electrical
type of systems that you have to have
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in place just to meet some sober
security standards. Um. Now what I
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do imagine? Two is that that's
gonna be a framework come out and you
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know that framework is gonna say,
okay, these are the type of controls
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that you need to have in a
place for your automobile, just like there
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are type of security controls that we
have in place for the utility plans.
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Yeah, okay, you know,
for the OTS systems. Now we establish
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a framework for automobiles, okay,
and you know that needs to be one
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for voting machines as well, you
know, because these are parts of industries
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that that have never been taught or
to discuss in depth about before. Yes,
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you know, kind of protecting the
consumer, which, uh, you
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know a lot of it's a Yiny
Yang of big government take over and controlling
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and too much regulation. But that
line of the consumer, if the consumer
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wins, the manufacturer or the UH, the company developing the product, they
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win because it gives them that competitive
advantage. Right. So you think about
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like government Um Regulations on just the
the US of the seat belt or the
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air bag. Right, we didn't
always require an air bag in the vehicle,
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right, and so at some point
there's gonna be those protocols in place
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that, okay, you have so
much technology in your vehicle. We need
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to protect the consumer. Somebody has
to step up and say, Um,
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you know, we're gonna not be
reactive but, like we talked about,
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being proactive. Um, let's talk
about from the hacker standpoint. You know
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that that weakest link. UH,
there's a statement that, as an attacker,
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always will go after the weakest solution
with the largest impact. Right.
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So, Um, have there been
examples or any guesses of what, Um,
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where a hacker could break into you
know, your uh, your devices
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through your vehicle? Yes, yes, they hackers. and Um, first
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of all, I was actually doing
some research today and I find out that
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ransomware is one of the strongest pushes
that hackers are doing, because if they
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can find a way to to actually
get your private information from these vehicles,
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hackers can use that against you and
maybe try to explore some ransomware or somewhere
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right now, now a vehicle and
cybersecurity. It actually goes outside the bounds
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of causing destruction on the vehicle.
It can be just as you use that
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easy as gathering information from these vehicles, especial private information. Let's say,
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for instance, you got the VN
number and you know you can get that
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information, then then you can track
that back to the owner and so forth,
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and maybe you can do something to
the on started system where it forces
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that car to stop or something like
that. Right, and then the owner
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may have to give up some money, you know, through ransomware or something
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like that. Right. So,
so we can really look at a vehicle
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and say that it can be the
mediator between and hacking it incident. Right,
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okay, because a hacker may not
want to hack a vehicle. But
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what if that vehicle is the mediator
though? Right, okay. So so
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it's like saying, okay, then
this is the this is the core to
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the piece of K kill, right, right, okay. So, so
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if I get through the vehicle,
then I can sit there and I can
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cause all type of arms because I
can get private information and I can disrupt
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the unstared system or whatever, and
I can find that data and I can
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force someone to give me some money, because if they don't give me no
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money, then I'm gonna lock their
computer up. Right. So so if
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you think about those type of issues
and how sobersecurity operate, because you know
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there is a chain reaction Um.
That could be one of the errors to
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that could force things. So it's
so so, to sum it up,
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ransomware, you know, your data
privacy, probably two of the Um strongest
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issues that I think that is happening
to um through like the automobile industry.
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Now, all right, let me
let me share it. Kind of we're
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getting ready to close things up here, but let me share this statement I
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found online. I interested in your
opinion on this. Um So, I
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found this kind of top ten lists
on number nine on the list here,
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right, is talking about one of
the topics we're talking about was privacy laws.
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Um. So I'll just kind of
read a little bit and and get
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your thoughts on this. So many
it says that many countries or regions have
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different laws about collecting what's called P
I, I. Private personally identify information,
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just what you were talking about,
to the ideas to protect and consumer
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privacy. But the risk is that
that might hamper hybrid, uh, cybersecurity.
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Right. So you're kind of putting
roadblocks, no pun intended in there,
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right, but uh, you know. So in essence, could be
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revealed is what vehicles hacked where.
Um, you know, it could identify
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the consumers in a location, but
you know, the consumers say, well,
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that's private information. I mean,
like a lot of we, you've
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had another episode about social media.
Right, who's controlling that data? Right,
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and so you're releasing it, uh, in good faith as a consumer.
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But then sometimes the government wants to
step in. Well, this is
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national security, right, we need
access to the information. So where,
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you know, where do you think
we're gonna end up? You know,
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landing on this Um of the balance? And then they talk about some international
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uh, you know, some countries
are other governments don't even allow that information
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to be shared outside the country.
So, I mean, what are your
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what are your thoughts on, you
know, the cost benefit analysis of that?
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Well, well, it's gonna go
the same process as with any other
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type of privacy regulations and privacy Um
discussion. Now, now, now that
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particular discussion is pretty much going to
say, okay, here's the government standard
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here and here's a and here is
a consumer that's saying that I want to
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I really don't think you need to
have my information. Then then on the
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other side, well, you have
the car manufacturers there, because they have
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a system where they when they keep
track of who actually bought the vehicle and
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win. Right. Now, you
know part of it is to have balance,
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all right, is to increase protection
into lower risk. I think that.
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I think that when they kind of
come to privacy itself, you know,
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the most important factor is to make
sure that the information is safeguarded and
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that is protected and that it is
only only only used for it, for
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the intended purpose. This is what
the consumers have a problem because you're saying,
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okay, you get out on this
data, but you don't tell me
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how you use this day. Because, see, we have policies and regulations
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that are written, but at the
end of the day, once somebody gets
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the data, they are supposed to
use that data for an intended reason.
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Okay, and and trust, trust
that the the private sector, of the
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public sector, is going to honor
that trust. Trade. Yeah, because
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only designated people is supposed to have
access to that data. Now, now
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we don't know what happens inside of
a building over there. You don't know
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who is who is who is seeing
the data. Okay, so, so,
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so it's always going to be a
struggle. But at the end of
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the day, Um, the idea
is to drive data protection and to have
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laws in place, and I believe
that it's gonna get better as time progress,
335
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because this is a like a junior
type of discussion that's going on about
336
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automobiles. But I would not want
just to rise to a level where where
337
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it becomes a senior discussion. I
call it a senior type of discussion because
338
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it's rised up to chain and it
and it has become very important now.
339
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:23.240
Right, okay, you know,
for for Cybersecurities, but between the public
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and the private sector and your automobile
industry. Um, you know that needs
341
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to be a discussion happening. And
speaking of discussions, one of the articles
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00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:37.480
you share with me earlier today I
found fascinating that it had an entire Um
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00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:44.880
timeline of this topic of cybersecurity and
hacking and vehicles and transportation, and it
344
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.240
goes back to it sounds crazy,
but one of the first articles was referenced
345
00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:53.039
in two thousand and two how to
hack your car on Forbes. Right.
346
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.640
I mean that's staggering because we think, oh, this is the last couple
347
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of years. So this topic has
been um in the you know, uh,
348
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on people's minds for going back that
long. Um, another thought I
349
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had, and we probably don't have
time to kind of dive into this,
350
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but we think about that personal vehicle. But ride sharing, those ride sharing
351
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vehicles, we get it. Those
are being monitor right, so we know
352
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where those people are going. Uh, you know, the point a to
353
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point be everywhere in between. So
it's just the world we live in.
354
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So I think, uh, I'll
turn things over to you to kind of
355
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close out the show, you know, if you can give us some kind
356
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:36.519
of positive uh notes, or I
think you're in a reference of like.
357
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:40.960
Again, it's really on the individual
to be uh, that awareness right and
358
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:42.920
close with that and then how people
would get in touch with you. Well,
359
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:48.160
what I what I'll tell you is, when it comes to technology,
360
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:52.640
it is it, it's you know, it needs to be some some type
361
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of controls in place in the cars
and whatever. If you are an individual,
362
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here's the only way that I think
that you can dry protection. Number
363
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One, if you have remote keys
that you use for your vehicles, Um,
364
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:11.440
make sure that you don't share them
seclists when you go places. And
365
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.559
if you have a if you have
a remote key, make sure you keep
366
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your head in your pocket, in
your pocketbook or whatever, because I'm seeing
367
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people that put the keys down on
the table right then they then they said,
368
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Oh yeah, you know I'll be
back. You know, and and
369
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.720
and you know, you can you, you know, you can find ways
370
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to Cyper, to Cyper the codes
for those vehicles. Okay. Secondly is
371
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that, Um, don't share your
vehicle. Yeah, I mean on the
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designated people should be driving. Should
be driving your vehicles. Um, I
373
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know for me when I go places, I really don't like to do valet
374
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parking because when I see somebody else, they're driving my car and listen and
375
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listen to my great music. Okay, I can't get real personal. Yeah,
376
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yeah, yeah, yeah, you
know, I don't like that.
377
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So I try not to valuate part. But but I think, as a
378
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consumer, I think that what you
can do is that, before you purchase
379
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a vehicle, asked the manufacturer,
Um, you know, about the type
380
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of features that they have on these
vehicles. You know, tell slow is
381
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:18.920
growing. Yeah, okay, I
think they're taking the lead in this,
382
00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:22.839
in this subject, in this topic. Right, yeah, yeah, so,
383
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:26.680
so, so you want to really
check check out the vehicle. But
384
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:33.079
they are minimum type of technologies in
these vehicles now, but in the future
385
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.200
they would have more technologies in these
vehicles and I would and I would think
386
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.279
that it's going to be a larger
discussion. But you know, it needs
387
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:45.119
to be a discussion now. So, speaking of discussions, how would people
388
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.079
reach out to you to, uh, for a deeper dive on this topic?
389
00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.359
Okay, then, for a deeper
dive on this topic, you can
390
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:56.680
go to my youtube channel and you
can always find me on youtube. If
391
00:29:56.680 --> 00:30:03.279
you type in the word chief of
for Cybersecurity, Dwayne Heart, you will
392
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.559
go find me on Youtube. If
you go to www dot dwayne heart dot
393
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:14.240
com, which is my website for
my book called the Tyber executed mindset,
394
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:17.880
you can go find me there.
Last well, not least, linkedin.
395
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:19.920
You know, you'll go and find
me there as well too. Or if
396
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:22.599
you just one of the the person
that want to do a google search,
397
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.319
you just go out there Google and
you take my name and and it'll come
398
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.839
up, and so so you'll find
me and, you know, just kind
399
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:34.400
of reach out to me and U
and, you know, just have a
400
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cybersecurity discussion. All right. Well, that's a good note to end on.
401
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:44.039
So we'll see you next time again
the book, the podcast, the
402
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:47.200
live stream, dwayne heart dot com, and we'll see you next time.
403
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Take care. Thank you. All
right. Eight
